If you've not already done so, go to andlandlord.com/books - and even if you've already, go there again! I've read each and every one of the books on this page, most of them multiple times - and just note that whenever I say read, I most often mean listen. I love Audio Books - listening mostly while driving. I've "read" more books since starting with Real Estate Investing 4 years ago in 2015 than I had in the prior 40 some years of my life.

A Quote from Jim Rohn – “Reading is essential for those who seek to rise above the ordinary.”

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Intro...

Welcome to Episode #23 - Do You Have The Right: Mindset; Attitude; Vision; Passion?

And so how does this relate to reading books?

More than anything else, reading all these books at andlandlord.com/books has served to change my MINDSET (how I look at things, people, the world). They've changed my ATTITUDE, which is how I let the things around me, things said to me, things that happen to me - affect my thoughts and feelings. They've changed my VISION, which is what I see for my future and how I see myself achieving my goals - even what those goals are. And they've served to focus my PASSION - making me a better Husband and Father (more successful as a man and person in general), as I'm now fully engaged for and towards those things I care most about. With the freedom to pursue my dreams without regrets or fear of judgement.

So do you read books like these? You should, as I was just treading water (so to speak) before I started reading books. I really thought it would be a waste of time, especially for the so-called "Self Help" variety of books - yet now I like those best! There is really some amazing, life changing content available on the page at: andlandlord.com/books.

Each of these affected me in some specific way, some more profoundly than others, and some not until I had read them for a second or third time. But it's my experience that you cannot just pickup a good book (or even a great book) and take from it some profound life changing lesson, unless you're actively seeking that exact information at the time it comes to you.

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I've met people at various networking events and heard from individuals on various podcasts - who each reported to have had their life changed by reading the book Rich Dad Poor Dad. More Real Estate Investors state that book as their eye opening moment that lead them into Real Estate Investing than any other (myself as well). But I've also met and heard from many people who've read that book and took NOTHING from it - and have actually hated it, and wondered why so many people recommend such a poorly written book.

How can two people read the same book and one person have their life forever changed, change how they view money and debt, change their career - and the other person is completely unaffected by the read and consider it to have been a waste of time? From what I can see, the first person is hungry and searching for something specific. They have the question, they almost even have the answer - but they just need help putting the pieces together into a clear thought and course of action. And then along comes the perfect book (for them at that time), which puts words to their existing thoughts and paints a clear picture for them of the answer.

Whereas the other person has no question in mind and therefore certainly has no answer in works. There is nothing for the book to aid with, as that person is not in a place where the book's information can fill in the gaps - there's nothing there on the subject to create gaps, so there's nothing to fill. And hence they think its the worse book they've ever read, and are likely frustrated by having taken nothing from a book that reports to change lives for countless others. I'd be angry at that also, and human nature is then to resent the book and those who recommended it - as certainly there's no fault or blame to be placed with you... Right?

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Mindset... It all stems from your Mindset. How and what you think will limit what you can and will become throughout your life. If you were a tree, your mindset is your roots - what everything else depends upon for growth. If you have a limited mindset, you will have limited (if any) growth. Whereas if you have an abundance mindset, pretty much nothing is long outside of your reach - and for that type of person, the only thing worse than setting low goals is no goals.

The book, Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Eker really expanded my mindset by introducing the idea of programming. That we as humans and individuals can be programmed to think a certain way; see things a certain way and be limited in both our expectations and outcomes - by our childhood experiences and the example of our parents and those around us. Another book along this same line of thought was Think & Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. These lead to me seeing some of my own mindset programming experiences and influences - and learning that children often fail to (or only slightly) exceed the level of success of their parents.

For example, my father was a Black Man who earned 6 figures as a Truck Driver and bought a $100,000 house (along with my mother) in what was an all-white neighborhood across from a lake and a golf course - at a time (in the late 70's) when most Black people were lucky to be earning in the low 5 figures; and certainly weren't buying houses in such locations (even at 1/4th the cost). I didn't realize it until much later, but I was programmed by this experience. Once I had reached an income of 6 figures and bought an equivalent house (by age 30), I hit a self-imposed ceiling and struggled for many years to reach another level beyond what my mindset programming would allow. Now after learning of this association and changing some of my thoughts and related actions - I again began to excel.

I actually came across much of the information on Real Estate Investing that I use now to great success back when I was something like 24. I bought a course from Carlton Sheets after watching a late night infomercial. When it arrived, I read the first few chapters, at which point my mindset at the time told me that this stuff (I used a different S word) would never work (at least not for ME). I set it aside and have no idea what eventually became of it. And then going on 20 years later, I started using Internet modernized version of the same techniques to acquire Rental Real Estate with NO & LOW MONEY DOWN.

It works fine for the person with the mindset I have now... The mindset I had back then wouldn't even allow me to try. Your limited mindset can hold you back from greater success for decades - if you let it.

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And once you start working on your Mindset, you'll find that your Attitude changes about nearly everything. Your Attitude is critical to how you're affected by and react to things that happen to and around you. We all know of negative and positive attitudes... Pessimist / Optimist. Glass Half-Full / Glass Half-Empty.

The books, How to Win Friends & Influence People; as well as Extreme Ownership - both had a profound affect on my attitude on just about everything. With the insight gained from reading these books, when conflicts arouse (and often before), I'd be triggered to think about the matter from the other person's prospective. That if I were in their shoes, with their experiences, upbringing, influences, mindset, and on... I'd likely feel or do exactly as they do on whatever matter of potential conflict is present (or about to be). Imagine how much easier it is to prevent or resolve a conflict if you truly attempt to see the matter from the other side (as long as the person isn't crazy, drugged or delusional).

It makes any conflict easier to manage. One of the bigger conflicts of the day... You hate Trump, but can you also see why a person wouldn't want Hillary as president - having nothing to do with sexism or racism? I can... And if you put a small amount of effort into seeing the matter from the other side, so could you. That doesn't mean the other side is right, but it also doesn't automatically make them evil or racist. Now that could be the reason, or not - but assuming the negative speaks to an attitude bias on your part, that I've learned to limit (not eliminate, but limit)

And Extreme Ownership is an amazing attitude to adopt, in that everything that is even partially within your power - is your responsibility. Something didn't go right... It's your fault. A task wasn't completed by someone as you directed... You must have provided inaccurate or incomplete directions? You dislike your boss or co-working... Maybe you've not endeavored adequately to get to know there good qualities. I could go on and on stating examples of how the fault lies with yourself - but imagine how much of a conflict avoiding and conflict resolving Ninja you'll become if you both look to see things from the other person's prospective and seek to place burden / blame and the need for a solution onto yourself.

Wouldn't people be attracted to someone with such an attitude about things? You'd have no end of friends, dates, job offers, promotions, raises, business opportunities, and on.. If you can successfully pull off that attitude shift. Easier said than done - and practice won't make perfect... But you will get better! And in this regard, better is miles ahead of almost everyone else.

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Vision... Have you any? Can you put together a plan and follow it to a destination - successfully? If you encounter obstacles along the way, can you re-route and get back on track? Or do you need GPS (a plan provided by someone else) to get anywhere? Can you see what is not yet present and make it a reality through efficient execution of a plan?

Like I mentioned in last week's Episode #22 (What's Your Why?) - I'm only just now realizing goals that I put into place over 20 years earlier. And my WHY was big enough and my Vision clear enough to see me through every unexpected thing that happened along the way.

Your Vision is an exercise in planning, goal setting, time management and execution. Books like The One Thing and The 4-Hour Work Week can aid greatly here. Also The E-Myth.

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Passion... Here most people think sex, food or maybe sports (their favorite team) - as things they have a passion for or are passionate about. But imagine how much of a blessing you can be to those you know and love or your favorite charity or organization - if you were passionate about being an aid to others. I started this podcast in part because I want to aid others in doing what I'm doing - especially those who think they can't.

What do you have a passion for? Mine is to be successful, but I came to understand from reading books (some of which I've already mentioned) - that this word (successful) is actually a way for me to avoid saying what I really mean... I WANT TO BE RICH!

But my upbringing, religious beliefs and society - would have me to believe that this is a wrong desire. "Money is the root of all evil"; "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." - Wow really!? I know a camel can't go through the eye of a needle, so that leads to the unavoidable conclusion that a rich person can't enter the Kingdom of God - Right? But wait, some of the most beloved Biblical figures (who certainly had God's favor) were VERY rich - so it can't be that cut and dry.

My passion is to be rich - but why? Because as a rich person, I can be so much more of an aid to those I know and love - and to everyone for that matter. Is anyone benefited by my being poor? Of course not, but I was hampered in my "success" for a decade because I was ashamed of my true passion to be rich, which you could also be stated as financial freedom - but that's just another "success" word substitute for what you really mean - Rich / Wealthy.

But books like The Richest Man In Babylon and the Rich Dad series of books aided me to a clearer understanding - that I was born for a better purpose than to become a lessor version of what I'm capable - because I'm fearful of judgement as to my motivation. No more... I want to be RICH. I want to be $10,000,000 RICH. And after reading The 10X Rule, by Grant Cardone, I want to be $100,000,000 RICH. And I will be! How about you?

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Its a basic but critically important question, the answer for which is often not a point of focus... "What's Your Why?

If you're like most people, you get up and go to work every day (with prep and travel time), devoting over 1/3rd of your day to your job - which is likely benefiting someone else more than yourself (your boss or the company or the government). Why do you do it? Sure, to pay your bills, to provide for your family - but is there nothing more?

A quote from Simon Sinek...

“If we want to feel an undying passion for our work, if we want to feel we are contributing to something bigger than ourselves, we all need to know our WHY.”

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Intro...

Welcome to Episode #22 - What's Your Why?

This will be one of my shorter episodes, as I just want to get you thinking along the lines of WHY. Or if not WHY, then maybe WHO? WHAT? WHERE? WHEN? HOW?

If you have no critical reason behind what you do, then you won't likely do it; or you certainly won't do it well and stick with it until you succeed. What even is success? Where is the finish line if you've not even defined the race? Instead, your likely to quit as soon as it gets hard - when you don't know WHY your even doing it.

Having a big why is a MUST, because most overnight successes take decades - and occur only after multiple failures. Why would you keep going through all that and for that long, unless you have a WHY that is strong. And / or your WHO is worth it. The WHAT is amazing. The WHERE is breath taking. The WHEN is before you give up. And the HOW is something you can envision. So what's your WHY?

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I started my first company back in 1996. It changed and morphed into many things before it became something that could sustain my financial needs by 2002 - when I quit my job and went full force into entrepreneurship. Back then my WHY was because I HATED BEING AN EMPLOYEE (checkout my blog post on that). I was single with no children, so the WHO was ME, and there was no consideration of WHAT, WHERE or WHEN. I just knew that it could not happen soon enough that I would become self-employed. And I knew the HOW was to be some sort of business that I would own.

I later got married and later still became a father, so my WHY and WHO changed. And I had come to realize that for me, life was all about experiences. So I did a lot of traveling with my wife and later with my son. My son has been on something like 5 or 6 cruises and he's only 11 (I didn't go on my first cruise until I was an adult) - and my wife and I had been on so many prior to his being born, that we cannot even recall the total number. And when not cruising, we'd fly directly to a desired destination.

We've gone somewhere on a trip every 3 to 6 months from the start of our 19 year marriage. So one aspect of my WHY I work so hard is to go every WHERE we can to have great experiences. And I'm glad we've done this all along, instead of waiting until we were more financially secure and thus older - as my wife and I already can't do some things we could easily do when we were younger. Wait too long to start enjoying life and you may find its over before you've had any fun.

In fact, if you are listening to this episode within a week or two of when it was posted, my wife and I are in either Dubai or Egypt right now (in the hot desert in the middle of Summer - so i'll let you know upon return if that was a good idea or not). But it was a largely FREE trip! I'll also let you know how I pulled that off in another episode about how to stack credit card points. So travel and experiences are one of the things I work hard to be able to afford. Frequent travel to all the beautiful places in this world (often with good friends and family) and amazing experiences are a major part of my WHY.

And just before we left on this trip, I got an unfinished Lake House under contract for purchase. For as long as I can remember thinking about where I'd ideally like to live - it has always been on a large lake with an acre or two of land right on the water. I've always wanted a waterfront house on a lake with amazing views, a boat house / dock for my boat and jet ski - maybe a pool and hot-tub. And my wife and son want the same. Well, it has taken me 23 years (maybe 24 by the time I close on it, get it completed and we're moved in). Living in my ideal house at my desired location, with the lifestyle that I want, has been for a long time a major part of my WHY, also WHAT and WHERE for that matter. What's yours?

Most people don’t get everything they want out of life as a teenager. You’re not usually going to have it in your twenties, or thirties. You might have to be forty or fifty years old before you really get the things that you’ve always wanted for your entire life. But you need to be able to identify those things so that you can put a plan in place to make it happen as soon as possible. And then, if you’re anything like me, you can be a twenty four year overnight success. But you need to know what your ‘WHY’ is, and you need to know how you’re going to make that ‘WHY’ a reality, and you have to put a plan in place to make it happen.

Is there a WHO, a WHAT, a WHERE - that makes up your WHY? Do you know HOW? And if it takes you 24 years as it has in part for me, can you preserver until that WHEN?

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Can you preserver? While I still work very hard today, its far different than it was 10 years ago, when 16 hour days were normal for me - (before I got into Real Estate) as I struggled to survive in a B2B (Web Hosting Service) business during the "Great Recession" where many of my biggest customers themselves went out of business. Those were some hard years. Is your WHY strong enough to get you through that sort of thing? And like I said, because of how I view life, I still traveled even during those 2 years (2009 - 2010) where business was very tight.

But it actually turned out to be a good thing for me and for the business (you know, "whatever doesn't kill you") - as 2011 was my best year by far up to that point. The prior two years forced me to greatly lowered my expenses. So when the income increased again, I was more profitable than ever. I also learned things that allowed me to increase income, which is why that business (ViUX.com) is still around making money for me today. But if your WHY is not big enough, would you even be able to take anything positive from a major setback in your plan?

And speaking of ViUX... If you're in need of a new Website or Hosting of your existing Business Website - visit V-i-U-X.com - and see what we can do for you and your business. Domain Names, SSL Certificates, Websites, Website and Email Hosting. All the services you need to have a highly successful business Website - that's what ViUX provides at the Website ViUX.com.

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And so going forward into my future, as I complete more interesting travels with my wife and son - returning to what will soon be our waterfront lake house after each. That won't be the end of my big WHY. I want to help others achieve their WHY in less time than it took me, so that is in part why I started the [... and Landlord] Podcast.

I got into Real Estate Investing because I don't want to have to work forever. I'll want to have a large portfolio of cash-flow positive rental properties and cash generating businesses that I don't have to work in myself - and I want to help others do the same. I've also got lots of business experience and advice I can share to make that possible.

To that end, I'll soon make myself available for a few FREE 30 minutes calls each week; where you can get on my schedule to discuss anything I might have insight into that can help you to achieve your WHY in record time.

With going on 5 years of Real Estate Investing experience... I'm a Licensed Real Estate Broker / Realtor; Property Manager; I've done wholesale deals and flips; I'm an experienced rehabber even up to serious foundation and fire damage - turning distressed properties into great rental homes. I'm even starting with new build construction. I know how to raise money and get deals funded. I've got over 23 years of general business experience; and I've got a tech business that can aid with just about the most important tool for anything today - the Internet. So not to go on about myself, but I think I've got the background, experience and knowledge to be of aid to just about anyone seeking to achieve their goals in Business and Real Estate - and I want to help you do so (starting as soon as I get back from Dubai and Egypt).

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Anyway, that's it for now... I'm likely floating down the Nile river at the time this episode posts, and I'll let you know how it went. But since I'm several episodes ahead, that will not likely be until next month. Until then, if you don't already know your BIG WHY, come up with something that you can be passionate about. And write it down. Make sure that you see and read it each day. Keep it on the forefront of your mind and the focus of your actions both short and long term. You'll get there, and if I can be of any aid in that process, its a part of my BIG WHY to do so.

I'll continue further into this on next week's Episode - #23 - Do You Have The Right: Mindset; Attitude; Vision; Passion?

Would you be surprised to hear that my goal is to rack up an additional $4,000,000 of debt within the next few years? Yes, Debt... I want MORE DEBT. Not Credit Card Debt, or Student Loan Debt (it's been awhile since I've been in school). Not Medical Bills or anything of Collections, Liens or Judgements. No, none of that BAD DEBT. I seek to hold all of my debt against cash-flow producing Real Estate... Lots of GOOD DEBT - as much as I can get!

"Debts are like children: the smaller they are the more noise they make." - Spanish Proverb

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Intro...

Welcome to Episode #21 - Give Me A Mountain Of Debt - With Rental Properties Going All The Way To The Top

So, going back to what I was saying in the lead-in... It's good debt, because with over $4,000,000 in mortgage loans at the typical requirement to put down 20% to 30% (or to maintain that level of equity in a refi) - this would mean that I'd own over $5,000,000 of Real Estate! At an average price of $125,000 per property (let's say), that would be approximately 40 rental properties, and possibly even more rental units if some of the properties are multi-family - duplexes, triplexes, quads.

But I know how you likely feel about debt. Let me read a few anonymously quotes that likely sum up your thoughts on the matter...

"A mortgage casts a shadow on the sunniest field." - Robert G. Ingersoll

"Debt is a great source of inner unhappiness." - Debasish Mridha

,"Debt is like any other trap, easy enough to get into, but hard enough to get out of." - Josh Billings

Or even more provocative…

"Debt is an ingenious substitute for the chain and whip of the slave-driver." - Ambrose Bierce

And I could have found a hundred more quotes like these, each seemingly better than the last (or worse, depending on your prospective). And unfortunately for me (and likely for you too) - I previously thought this way about debt as well - all debt - so I'm not going to say these are wrong. And I still do think this way when it comes to things like Credit Cards, Car Loans, and for somewhat different reasons (see last week's episode), Student Loans.

So don't get me wrong... Quotes like these are not far off when it comes to almost every type of loan or debt. But Rental Real Estate is an exception. It's a great / amazing exception for multiple reasons. There's absolutely nothing like Rental Real Estate and the unbelievable deal that we get here in America of being able to lock in a fixed rate / low interest loan for 30 years! That (in the case of Rental Real Estate) will be paid back from the rent you earn from Tenants over that period of time.

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Let's say I want to buy a $100,000 house... Banks and other lenders will actually line up and fight to give me $0.80 on every dollar of that purchase. So I only have to come up with $20,000 (maybe $25,000 when accounting for closing costs and other expenses). And at today's low interest rates, my fixed rate 30 year loan may have a payment of less than $500/mo. Add in taxes and insurance, and let's say my payment (PITI - Principle, Interest, Taxes & Insurance) is $625/mo - and there is no HOA.

Now let's say that I'm able to rent this home for $1,000/mo. Then I take out reserves totaling 20% for: Vacancy; Repairs & Maintenance; CapEx (Capital Expenditures - large ticket repairs that have some longevity and may increase property value like a new roof or HVAC system); and Property Management (and I know that some withhold more for reserves), but far too many Landlords don't even consider it. So I'm left with $800/mo, of which $625/mo goes to PITI (the mortgage payment, taxes and insurance). This leaves me with a remaining positive monthly cha-ching of $175/mo.

Now I know that doesn't sound like much, but it totals $2,100/year, which is a return of 8.4% on your $25,000 investment. And this is not even counting the $2,400/year you're putting aside for reserves - that may eventually get high enough that you can safely lower it and boost your cash-flow and return further. Now I would have preferred to be able to rent such a home for something like $1,280/mo and then be near to $400/mo of positive cash-flow (after reserves). That would be over 19% ROI.

And with Rental Real Estate,you make money in at least 4 ways... You don't just make money from the cash-flow. You also have tax benefits (mortgage interest, expense write-offs, depreciation); and mortgage pay-down through amortization - eventually you end up with a fully paid-off house from your tenant's rent payments covering your mortgage! That's called a FREE HOUSE! And while you cannot count on it - you should also be buying in locations that have the potential for value appreciation. So I won't go into it here, but in a coming episode specific to this topic, I'll break down the math of how these multiple ways of profiting from Rental Real Estate often total a combined ROI (Return of or on Investment) of over 50%! Where else are you going to get that!?

And it’s the leverage of debt that makes it all possible. You only get that return on investment because you borrowed 80 % of the money, and only had to put in 20 %. If you put all the money in as cash, your rate of return is going to be garbage. It’s the leverage of debt that accelerates your growth in multiple ways. First of all, you’re putting in less money, so your return is based on the amount that you put in. You’re putting in 20 % in the deal instead of 100 %, but also because you only put in 20 %, you’ve now got extra money that you can go buy another house.

When I got into this, I had $100,000 that I wanted to invest. Instead of buying one house and being done for years, I bought five houses with that money, or four if you want to count the closing and holding cost that I had to come up with. But the point is, I took what Dave Ramsey and others, who are against debt, would have had me buy one house with, and I bought four or five houses with the same amount of money, accelerating my growth. And in the process, I learned things that allowed me to start using other people’s money in various creative financing techniques in order to accelerate my growth even further.

If I felt the way most people feel about debt, I would be sitting here with one house, wondering how am I going to make any money in real estate? And would you be listening to a podcast of a guy who has one house trying to tell you how to be successful in real estate? I don’t think so.

So why would I NOT want to buy this $100,000 house that makes me money in multiple ways, and get $80,000 from a lender at what are currently all-time low interest rates - locked in for 30 years! OMG - what a deal!

At some point in the future when interest rates are at or near 10% again like they were 30 years ago (or worse), you're going to wonder what the H you were thinking by not stacking up on all this cheap to FREE money. And YES, you can make a mathematical case that when accounting for inflation and other benefits, that Rental Property Mortgages obtained today is essentially FREE money. So I want ALL OF IT that I can get. And my goal is at least $4,000,000 more over the next 2 to 3 years.

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As long as each property is cash-flow positive, then I'm good. And the amount of cash-flow that I target for each property even gives me room to lower rents in an economic downturn to avoid vacancy - and still have positive monthly cash-flow. In the prior example, I could lower that $1,280/mo rent to $980 and still have $100/mo in positive cha-ching (cash-flow is king). Or if it were only rented for $1,000/mo, I could lower to $900 and still have $75/mo in my pocket (not as much cha-ching but its still positive cash-flow - KING). I could even go lower if needed, and assuming a crash doesn't happen right after I buy the property, I'd have plenty of reserves on-hand (after awhile) - and could lower future withholding of reserves to ride out the downturn.

People who lost their shirts in the last downturn where vastly over-leverage and were not withholding sufficient reserves. Don't make those mistakes! And certainly don't let the mistakes of others poison your mind to the amazing opportunity that exists for Rental Real Estate Investors today - to lock in all-time low interest rates for 30 years! Its the best thing ever! Give me millions of it and more. And hey, if you don't want it - Great! More for me!

The bottomline is that poor people have debt, but surprise, surprise…rich people have debt also. The difference between the two is knowing how to leverage debt to make money; making money with other people’s money, and in the case of debt, the lender, which is typically a bank. You’re making money with their money. You're buying an asset that appreciates in value, that gives you tax benefits, that gives you cash-flow, I really don’t see what’s better than that. It’s all about knowing how to manage debt, how to leverage debt, and how to utilize debt to your own betterment.

Now, if you’re going to go out and use your credit cards to go on a cruise, you probably should stay out of debt. That’s not a proper use of credit or debt. But if you're going to go buy a cash-flow producing asset that’s almost certain to be worth more than what you're buying it for years later, will put money in your pocket every month, and also make it so that when tax time rolls around, you likely don’t owe anything and will probably get money back, I told you before on a prior episode that the years before I got into real estate, I always owed in taxes – $14,000, typically – but the year after I bought two houses, I got $6000 back as a refund, which was unheard of for me.

But the bigger point is that that’s a $20,000 swing. I went from owing $14,000 every year to getting $6000 back, and I actually made more money that year that I got that refund. $20,000 was my tax benefit, resulting from having bought two houses in 2015. Those houses are now worth, both of them, actually, are worth tens of thousands, and in the case of one, over $100,000 more than it was worth when I bought it, or more than what I paid for it. And they’ve been putting positive monthly cash-flow in my pocket every month since I bought them in 2015.

Do you think I care that there’s a mortgage on that property? And that mortgage, principle, interest, taxes, and insurance has to be paid every month? I don’t, because guess what? I'm not the one paying it.

The tenant who lives in that property pays the mortgage on my behalf indirectly. They pay their rent. I use that rent to pay the mortgage, to pay the principle, interest, taxes and insurance, to pay the HOA. And then I pocket the difference, which is hundreds of dollars per month. And the properties have gone up in value, so I have hundreds of thousands of dollars’ worth of equity in those properties. And when you factor in the other properties, there are massive amounts of equity. They’re positive, monthly cash-flow generating assets, and I bought them with 80 % debt from a lender. I couldn’t have done that if I had to pay cash for them, because I would have been done after one, maybe two, properties.

Change the way you look at debt. Dave Ramsey is correct; if you can’t manage your finances, if you can't pay your bills on time, if your cell phone bill is late, your cable bill is late, if you have collections, leans, judgments on your credit, then you have some work to do before you're able to play with the fire that can be debt. But if you have those things figured out – if you know how to pay your bills on time – and if you know how to leverage borrowed money to your betterment, there’s no better way to do it than with rental real estate.

So, that’s what this episode has been about; change the way you look at debt. Like the title of the episode says, I want a mountain of it! I want millions more in debt over the next several years. But what that means, the underlying message of that, is that I will be buying a lot of cash-flow producing real estate over that period of time, and I'll be using debt from lenders to do it. Many cases, it’s banks and traditional lenders.

But as I grow this business, I have opportunities to leverage private lender funds, and sometimes private lenders with funds in self-directed IRA’s. so, you’re someone who has money that you’d like to invest, and you’d like to get a good, consistent rate of return on it, give me a call. Go to andlandlord.com, submit the form on the site, the ‘Get in Touch’ form, and we’ll schedule a call and we’ll talk about your needs and what you might be able to do as an investor with me and Blue Chariot.

Beyond that, if you're someone who has cash, and you would like to buy rental properties in the Raleigh/Durham area, again, get in touch with me. I'm a realtor, and I'm a property manager, so I can help you.

But, remember, the underlying point of this episode; debt is nothing to be scared of. It’s something that you have to respect, especially if you're using private lender funds, because you don’t want to be the person who messes up someone’s retirement. You don’t want that on your conscience. But if you're a debt adverse person, I would just advice you to change your outlook on it.

----------

Let’s say you do have rental properties, and they’re fully paid for – no mortgage – and all that cash-flow, other than taxes and insurance and maybe an HOA payment, or any other expenses, goes in your pocket. There’s no principle, there’s no interest, there’s no mortgage, it’s all your cash-flow. But the problem is that this property, or these properties, are likely worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe millions, and you’ve got all of that equity sitting on the table.

There are two critical things wrong with that.

No.1, you’ve made yourself a target. If someone were to sue you, they now have a very big treasure chest to go after; all of that equity, hundreds of thousands, maybe millions sitting in those properties in equity, that they can now capture through a judgement. You don’t want to just let the properties sit there as targets for someone to go after. Take that equity out in the form of a mortgage, at an all-time low interest rate, and use it to buy more properties. Again, what is better than that?

But the other reason is related to what I just said. By having fully paid-for properties, no leverage, no mortgage, you basically have equity that is, for a lack of a better word, dead money. You might as well put it under your mattress because it will do just as much for you under your mattress as equity locked in a property. Pull that cash out, and go buy some more properties, to increase your wealth, to accelerate what you’re doing, with debt.

I could not even sleep at night if I had equity in fully paid-for properties, just sitting there collecting dust, doing absolutely nothing for me. That’s a financial crime.

Now, maybe if I was 80 years old, I would feel differently about it. Talk to me when I'm 80, I'll let you know, but right now, I am all about debt! Good debt, cash-flow positive rental properties, on top of that, debt, and as high as I can stack it, I will.

Outro...

Disclaimer...

“Landlords grow rich in their sleep, without working, risking or economizing.”
-John Stuart Mill – Political Economist

That quote relates well to the motivation of today’s guest, Chad Kastel – stock day trader… and landlord.

Intro

Welcome to Episode #20, and my second interview. Chad Kastel is my guest today. He is a stock day trader and landlord. He’s also a realtor in Hollywood, Florida, in addition to his more important titles of “husband” and “father”.

I had the pleasure of meeting Chad earlier in the year at a multi-family real estate investing event in Denver, Colorado, and we’ve maintained pretty much weekly contact since then, to see where we might be able to do business together. I highly recommend attending networking events, whether they be local, or you have to travel, where you can come into contact with like-minded individuals, who may be doing greater things than you, or maybe just doing different things than you, either way, from which you can learn. Not only will you meet colleagues, but potential business partners, and maybe your next private lender. But you can also come across someone who will be a mentor to you, or it might be the start of a mastermind, or just an accountability partner.

Meeting people and making connections, at networking events, can be very valuable to your growth – both business, and personal. Which is why I was especially intrigued to have met Chad – a stock day trader, who later got into real estate investing and became a landlord, because I was considering getting into stock day trading before becoming a real estate investor, literally within weeks of each other.

So, let’s get into the show, and hear what Chad has to say about stock day trading and real estate investing, and being a landlord and a realtor, all of it. And please, excuse some of the audio quality issues. I will improve that going forward.

Jonathan

So, my guest today, on the [ …and Landlord] Podcast, is Chad Kastel, an individual that I met at a real estate investing summit in Denver, Colorado. Great guy, has amazing information about what he’s done in real estate investing and, most interesting to me, he’s a stock day trader – something that I wanted to get in. So, Chad, welcome to the show, and thank you for being here.

Chad

Hey, J.T, thanks for having me on.

Jonathan

So, tell me a little bit about yourself and what do you got going on?

Chad

So, my background is in day trading, like you said. I've been doing that for 8 years. The way I got into that was through a collectible trading card game called Magic: The Gathering, which skillsets directly correlated to me getting into day trading. And in November, I got into real estate investing as a part-time, I'm not going to call it a hobby, but way more into it than a hobby, and hopefully will get into that full-time in the next couple of years.

Jonathan

So, tell me, how did Magic: The Gathering, I've heard of that game, and my son plays it, I haven’t, how does that lead into day trading?

Chad

So, Magic is a game of skill and chance, and limited information. So, you develop strategies to beat your opponents. Sometimes you develop the correct strategy, and you lose. And sometimes you develop an incorrect strategy and you win, and you have to be able to tell the difference between both of those, and not be result-oriented with those strategies. And those skillsets directly correlate to trading, because sometimes I've had trades in the past that have won, and they have been the wrong trades and they’ve been the wrong reasons to do them. And you have to correctly analyze that, so you don’t make a mistake again. Even though I won in that particular trade, it’s a long term losing trade, and vice versa. Sometimes you lose in a trade, but it’s a long term winning trade, and you have to just keep doing it. That’s how I was able to sell myself onto getting into trading.

Jonathan

And so, how does the day trading work? You’re not holding onto these stocks past one day literally, correct?

Chad

Me, most of my trades are minutes, seconds. It depends on how volatile they are, but yeah, I rarely keep positions over night.

Jonathan

Can you tell me how that works out as far as your best and worst days, or no?

Chad

Can’t really go into that, but what I can tell you is that I've made a nice living out of it. I've had, besides getting help getting into it, I haven’t had any financial assistance, and I've been able to provide for my family and buy a house, and get into real estate and buy a property in cash. It’s been okay for me.

Jonathan

More good days than bad, certainly.

Chad

Yeah.

Jonathan

So, I was considering becoming a day trader before I got into real estate investing. Are there any special knowledge or skills, or should you have a certain aptitude to be a day trader?

Chad

Well, the numbers don’t like. So, you have to be honest with yourself, and you have to be able to critically think things through. You have to be able to evolve because the strategies that you might use, at least in the way that I trade, two years ago, aren’t particularly applicable now, or don’t come as often. You have to be okay with, generally speaking, being alone. So, if you're an extrovert, like I'm an extrovert, so that’s kind of draining on me being alone all day. And those skillsets, being honest with yourself, critical thinking, they’re not something that everybody can have. Which is okay, but if you're going to get involved into a game where you could lose money, you don’t want to do that if you don’t have those skillsets.

Jonathan

Okay, so, how did you add “rental real estate investing” to being a stock day trader?

Chad

Well, I was just, over the course of last 4-5 years, looking at multiple revenue streams. And I knew I had an active revenue stream in day trading, even though I don’t know what I'm going to make every month, it’s been very consistent. And I was looking for a passive revenue stream.

So, in November, I finally just hopped into Google, and typed “How to invest in real estate?” and found Bigger Pockets, and started absorbing as many podcasts and articles and webinars and everything I could do. Once I figured out the basic formula to purchase a rental property, I just started to look in Florida, and didn’t find any cash-flow deals here, and ended up finding a cash-flow deal in Upstate New York.

Jonathan

Okay, well, I want to know more about that, but is your long term goal to move completely into rental real estate investing, or will you continue to do stock day trading, or do both?

Chad

So, my long term goal is to slowly move out of trading. It’s a five day a week job for the most part. Maybe a few years from now, I'm doing it two to three days a week, and five years from now, I'm doing it zero. So, to answer your question, yes, my long term goal is to get out of stock trading.
Jonathan

So, you said that your rental properties are in New York?

Chad

Yeah, I have one full-time rental property in Upstate New York.

Jonathan

Okay, well, tell me about that. Why in New York, and how is that going for you?

Chad

Just kind of the right place at the right time. I had a former business partner who recommended that area because he owns rental properties in the area. I just started researching it and found that the cash-on-cash returns were excellent, and just started making wholesale type offers on the properties, and waited till I got the right deal. The property I was buying, they were asking for $90,000. I offered $73,500 in cash, and $83,500 with the mortgage. We ended up meeting at $78,800 in cash. I ended up putting $10,000 into it, and now it’s renting. It’s fully rented for $2300.

Jonathan

How many bedrooms?

Chad

So, it’s a two-structure property. The first structure is a four bedroom house, and the second structure is a commercial unit occupied by a dog grooming place.

Jonathan

Oh, so, mixed use? Commercial and residential.

Chad

Mixed use, yeah.

Jonathan

And that was your first deal? Wow.

Chad

Yeah

Jonathan

Okay, so, how has that gone? Have there been any hiccups, headaches, hassles, or is it the best thing that has ever happened to you?

Chad

So, both. A $2300 rental unit on a, let’s just call it, $90,000 place is a great return on your investment. The reason it’s not unbelievable at the moment is, one, I'm having trouble cashing out. My plan was to buy it in cash, and then cash out, but my amateurish, or novice-ness, where I did not know that banks would not cash out commercial properties. They just don’t want to deal with mixed use properties. So, I've been having trouble getting anybody to re-fy me out. If they are willing to, they don’t want to do anything less than $100,000, or they don’t do Upstate New York. So, that was a mistake that, had I know, I might not have done

Jonathan

Okay, so, the aspect of it being a mixed use property, that commercial element, prevents you from going to a regular lender, and getting a thirty year fix?

Chad

Yeah, I've spoken to a lot of different lenders. It’s just one of those categories where it’s either not expensive enough, or they don’t want to do New York, or they don’t want to do mixed use. So, I've been having trouble getting a decent rate. I've had family that’s willing to do it, but I kind of just want to do this first one on my own. So, worst case scenario, I'll have a family member cash out re-fy, and they’ll give me the $70,000, or whatever the 70 % of LTV is.

Jonathan

Is there something specific about New York that makes them not want to lend on it?

Chad

The lenders?

Jonathan

Yeah, what’s their concern about New York?

Chad

I’m not sure. Just a bunch of lenders I've called have said “Oh, we do every State, but New York and Alaska”, or something. And New York just seems to be on the States that lenders just say that “Oh, we don’t do New York”. So, the conversation never went any further.

Jonathan

Well, see, a lot of people getting into real estate investing for the first time, their fear is the unknown, and they let that stop them from getting started. So, the fact that you got started is great. Other than having your cash locked in the property, have there been any other unforeseen occurrences, or things that you wish you had known going in?

Chad

Well, not the latter of your question, but the former is, well, you know, I've tried to work with a recommended construction guy. He has a construction company, and I was going to hire him to do the construction work, and I was going to hire him to oversee the property and give him some equity in the property to do so. Figuring if he owned some of the property, he would take care of it like its own. But it didn’t work out particularly well, and he didn’t do his job, so I ended up having to let him go. I was lied to, but some of it was my fault. I could have done a better job to oversee him.

Jonathan

Right

Chad

And, you know, the old adage, “trust but verify?”

Jonathan

Certainly.

Chad

I trusted, but only like three-quarter verified. So, I could have lost less money than I did. But you have to take responsibility when you mess up. It was my fault, and I lost out into it, so I got punished.

Jonathan

Do you think it would have been different if you were local, or the distance between New York and Florida play into it?

Chad

Maybe I would have driven over there. I think it more, I just was a little too trusting, and lazy or, I'm going to call it incompetent in some spots. But, yeah, maybe it would have worked out, so it wouldn’t have happened. But, I really just have to take the blame that I just needed to keep it a little bit more of an eye on him.

Jonathan

Mistakes are some of the best learning experiences, and if you’re taking that on yourself and saying that you’re to blame, you'll certainly be better for it going forward. How are you going to move forward? What are you doing in real estate investing now? Is it still going to be New York, or are you looking at other property types in other locations?

Chad

Yes, so, I will consider expanding on New York. I would want to get that particular place rented and see how it did for four months, and make sure that it was what I thought it was, and so we’re on the way to that. I had hired a new property manager, who I'm happy with, but not ecstatic about. He’s doing a pretty good job. I can get in touch with him, which I care about. Moving forward, I've started to flip properties in South Florida. Mostly my wife – I met a flipper down here, who wanted to expand his market. he wanted to teach me, I didn’t have any time, but my wife was interested, so he taught her, and we have already wholesaled and are midway through a rehab down here.

Jonathan

Oh, so you’re a husband and wife team in real estate investing?

Chad

Yeah, I would say it’s more like I bridged the gap from the flipper, whose name is Brandon, and that went to her. I'm not really that involved. I learned how to do it just because I wanted to be able to comp properties and learn that skillset, but she’s really doing most of the looking-and-finding for the properties.

Jonathan

So, with regard to things like comping properties, do you have your real estate license in Florida?

Chad

I do.

Jonathan

So, do you perform as a realtor in addition to real estate investor and stock day trader? Or did you just get it to be a better investor?

Chad

Well, I got it to be a better investor, and then I had somebody ask me to sell their house. It was the right opportunity, and we just wanted our contract for my first house sale.

Jonathan

So, is that something you’re going to pursue going forward?

Chad

If it’s the right opportunity, yeah. I'm not going to take someone’s house. If I'm going to take your listing, you’re going to get 100 % of me, so I'm not going to take the listing if I don’t feel that A) It’s worth it for me, B) I won’t do a good enough job, or C) if I think you’re going to be a problem to work with. I want people that are easy to work with, and understand that I understand the markets, and what prices things should be sold or bought for. And if someone’s going to tell me how to do my job, then they should get another realtor. That’s how I look at it.

Jonathan

Certainly, certainly. Well, that’s often one of the questions that those investing in real estate have, is should they get their license, and there are some pros and cons to it. Do you think it has been betterment, or has it hampered you in any way being licensed?

Chad

It’s hampered me in no way. If I just sell a property, and do nothing else with it every three years, I mean that’s just adding money into your revenue stream that wouldn’t have otherwise been there. I'm very, very big on having, on making a revenue stream, as I possibly can.

Jonathan

Yeah, I feel the same way. And then, with regard to the property manager on your other property, have you ever considered self-managing?

Chad

I've considered it. I don’t think the money that I'll save with one property is worth it to me at this time. Speaking with you, and a couple of other people who own multiple homes, the systems in place are phenomenal, and the time invested to get those systems in place, probably isn’t there for me right now. But once I stack up the properties, and have four, five, six, maybe ten properties, then yeah, of course I’ll very strongly consider self-managing.

Jonathan

So, as I mentioned, you and I met at Joe Fairless event, the best ever real estate investing advice conference, in Denver Colorado, what brought you to that event, and what did you take away from it?

Chad

So, there were a couple meetings down here, and I went to one and I met a really nice lady named Rita Medeiros. She is twenty something, single family home, in Ohio, and she just recommended some meetings, and she recommended some conferences. The meetings I went to worked out very well, and she recommended Joe’s conference, so I said all right, let me just fly there.

It’s the best conference I've been to so far. I got a lot out of it. I learned a lot. It gave me some ideas, and seed thoughts that I've expanded upon since going. I met you there. I met a bunch of other people there. It was a very positive experience. It taught me about partnering, and the one negative thing I'll say about the conference, is that I thought that people were a little deceptive with how they pitched me. So, they would say things like “Oh, I have 500 doors outright”, and when I actually delved into it, they owned four properties outright, and they owned 5 % of the other 496.

Jonathan

Yeah.

Chad

Which is totally fine, but they made it seem like they owned 500 doors outright themselves, or with a partner, or something.

Jonathan

Yeah, they don’t tell you that they’re a limited partner, and they’ve got a very small percentage in the deal.

Chad

And I didn’t know if it was a sales pitch, or if it was an ego thing, but I'm not a fan of that. I think owning a piece of 500 doors is already enough of a line in your resume, because it shows that you made the right investment types, and you’re expanding and hedging instead of owning one single-family home. It’s a great thing, but that’s just something I wasn’t a fan of, and something I look out for more now.

Jonathan

Yeah, I encountered some individuals speaking along those same lines, and it sounds like I thought it was more of an ego play. But yeah, it could have been a sales pitch as well.
Now, you’ve been on Joe Fairless’s show. Do you recall what episode that was?

Chad

You know, I don’t recall. It was in early May.

Jonathan

I’ll put it in the show notes in case people want to see what you had to say on that show. You mentioned that when you were at the event, you gained some knowledge about partnerships, and that’s something that I've been struggling with how about best to partner with individuals, how to build a team. With regard to your flipping business, or flipping activity, in Florida, are you starting that process of building a team so then that could become an on-going business for you and your wife?

Chad

Yes, so, the team is small, and know what the flipper taught us. We’re both realtors; my wife, and now we’re beginning to teach people from other areas in Northern Florida, and Central Florida, things that are just a little out of our grasp; to developing relationships with contractors there.

The most important thing is just to find the properties. If we find the deals, everything else will fall into place. So, it’s teaching people that will sit there and look at what’s on the wholesaler lists, and we’ll spend a few hours a day grinding through the properties to find one, to find a gem in the rocks. And so, I'm teaching somebody who lives in Wellington, which is about an hour and a half North of me, and I'm looking to maybe get into the Jacksonville area. It’s slow and steady. You know how it is.

Jonathan

Yeah, I'm hearing lots of things about Jacksonville. So, that’s one of the areas that I've considered expanding into, and I'm originally from Florida myself. So, your future goals for real estate investing, I know that you want to build a portfolio of rental properties. You’ve mentioned that you’ve done some wholesaling, and that you’re working with your wife to accomplish some flips. My purpose for going to Joe’s event in Denver was to learn more about getting into larger, multi-family properties. What do you think your focus is going to be going forward?

Chad

We’ve both kind of had that same goal, but I'm having trouble competing and finding decent deals in the larger multi-family units.

Jonathan

Me too.

Chad

So, that’s always in play. I'd rather scale up with multi-families, but I'm not going to force where I'm pegging into a square hole. If I can go out and find a single family home that can do cash-on-cash returns for 30 %, I'm not going to not do it because I want to get the multi-family. So, my goal is to have passive income on my own, and have some single-family homes, and have some active income with flipping and wholesaling, and then maybe long-term do some syndication with apartments. But the syndication, I can't force it. I'm not going to take peoples’ money and go and get a sub-prime deal, or a deal that’s not super-great. I'll wait until the market shifts, and then I'll get into that.

Jonathan

And so, speaking of that, do you think that there will be a change in the market, a downturn in the economy, or something of that nature coming along soon?

Chad

Statistically, yes. We’re on more of a ten-year upswing, and generally speaking, every ten years, you have some sort of downswing. I personally have a decent chunk of my portfolio in gold and in silver, to prepare for that. Does that mean it’s going to happen? Of course not, and I don’t have a crystal ball, but if history repeats itself at all, it should be coming in the next couple of years.

Jonathan

Okay, I agree with that. I didn’t know you were a gold bug. I wanted to get into that too. So, I have to ask you about that at a later date in another conversation. I want to learn more about gold myself.

Chad

I'm happy to discuss.

Jonathan

So, I want to thank you for your time, Chad. I know that you're a husband, father, entrepreneur, realtor, stock day trader, and you’re a landlord. What advice would you give the listeners of this podcast to also seek to add [ …and Landlord] to their personal list of titles and descriptions?

Chad

You’ve kind of touched on it earlier, is that you just have to take the dive in. There’s a lot of information on the internet. There are a lot of meanings. It’s very easy to learn how to be profitable as a landlord, so don’t be scared of the unknown. Pump yourself as much information as possible. Take the dive knowing full-well you’re going to make mistakes. Maybe search for a thicker deal with a lot of room for error, like I did. So, when you make mistakes, it’s not nearly as costly.

And don’t be results-oriented. As soon as I had a partnership go back, and let go of that person in April, by May I had another partnership in which we’ve already made more money than the one I lost. And I think a lot of people would have said “Oh, this one thing went bad”, like everything’s going to go bad. You just can't think like that. You have to make an analysis and move forward, and just jump in.

Jonathan

Thank you, I really liked that advice. I appreciate that. I have one additional question. What books are you reading right now?

Chad

I'm actually reading a book on Land Trusts by Randy, can’t remember his last name, Hughes maybe? I'm just looking how to put my property in Upstate New York, and the one that I own in Florida, which we really didn’t touch on, into a Trust, to make myself a little bit more insulated from liability and lawsuits.

Jonathan

You’re right, I did not go back to your Florida property. Tell me about it, please.

Chad

So, I bought that property in 2016, and this is what I knew about real estate. These are my thoughts; real estate, good. Renting, bad. That was all I knew. This is also a two-structure property. It’s a studio apartment in the back, about 600 sq., and a two-bedroom house in the front, about 1900 sq., and my wife and I lived in the studio and rented out the two-bedroom house with a pool on Airbnb. We live about a five minute drive to the beach and about a ten minute drive to the Ft. Lauderdale airport. Originally, we were going to buy a house for about $350,000, live in it until we’re ready for our next step, and I found this property for $50,200, and I said “Oh”, we can pay for our mortgage and plus by living in the studio.

And it took a little while to talk her into it, but she eventually agreed, and the money that we made and saved over that three year period, is about what I bought the property in New York for cash for. So, that’s snowball living in this 600 sq. apartment. That $70,000 we made is now going to make another $10,000 a year on top of that.

Jonathan

So, you sacrificed a little delayed gratification, and it resulted in yet another property.

Chad

It did, and my friends thought I was nuts, because for the money I was making, they just couldn’t understand why I was living in this 600 sq. apartment. It was livable, but I moved from a two-bedroom apartment on Las Olas, which is a very nice district in Ft. Lauderdale, into the studio apartment, and they just didn’t understand. But, I had a plan, and my plan is to be able to develop enough passive income to not have to work and not do my trading job.

Jonathan

How did you come to that realization? That’s something that most people never even figure out that you’re better off doing your own thing, and building residual passive income than being someone’s employee? I commend you for figuring that out at such a young age.

Chad

Well, a lot of people learn from their parents, like how to act. I learned from my parents’ mistakes, and they made pretty much every mistake financially they could in the book.

They were very irresponsible, and my father unfortunately passed away and had a tremendous amount of stress on himself in the later part of his life and his late 50s. So then my mom, because they had no money, and they didn’t have a retirement plan, they didn’t save, and didn’t invest, I didn’t want to be like that! I decided I didn’t want to be someone who had to work in their 50s. That’s the going rate. That’s what everyone does. They save up enough from their pay, they work very hard, and they retire for a totally sweet life in their 50s and 60s, which there’s nothing wrong with. I just decided that I didn’t want that. I did not like that status quo that everyone seems to do. I wanted to do the things I loved to do, and I thought that I could do those things from age 40 on, which is way earlier than most.

Jonathan

Yeah, unfortunately it is. Well, Chad, you’ve been a great guest. I thank you. You’re only the second interview I have done on the podcast, and I know that you and I will eventually be doing some deals together as well. We just have to get to that point, but I thank you so much for your time, and for the information that you’ve provided to those who listen to the [… and Landlord] Podcast.

Chad

Thanks so much for having me, J.T. It was a big pleasure.

Outro

Okay, that was my interview with Chad Kastel – husband, father, stock day trader, realtor, and landlord. What did you think? Let me know. I'd appreciate the feedback. And also, if you are beyond your first deal in real estate investing, let me know. Let everyone know. Come on the show and talk about your experience – good, bad or ugly. I want to hear about it. Everyone will benefit from learning from the experiences of others, especially others that are just starting out. Everyone can go on the Bigger Pockets podcast than listen to someone who has 200 units, but are you really going to learn from that person who has 200 units what you need to know in order to get your first unit?

So, go to andlandlord.com, scroll to the bottom of the page, and click “Get in Touch” if you’d like to be on the show. Or if you know someone who is an entrepreneur, or has a landlord story, or even a landlord horror story, that might benefit others to hear, I'm interested. I want to hear it. I'd like to get those individuals on the show. And if you don’t have any rental properties yet, and you’re looking to get started and become a landlord, but you think you can’t, you think maybe your day job prevents you from doing it, look at Chad. He’s a stock day trader, five days a week. His day is occupied, but yet he still became a landlord. So, you can do it, and property management may be the thing that will help you do it. And like I've said before, if your rental property, or if you’re looking to get a rental property in the Raleigh/Durham, area, feel free to contact me, and hire me and Blue Chariot Management, to take care of your property management needs in the Raleigh/Durham Triangle area of North Carolina.